Re: I fully agree with andrew

www.zcommunications.org/znet/v…e/17672

Source: UK Guardian

As the Palestinian people prepare to commemorate the 60th anniversary of the Nakba (”catastrophe”) - the dispossession and expulsion of most of our people from our land - those remaining in Palestine face escalating aggression, killings, imprisonment, ethnic cleansing and siege. But instead of support and solidarity from the western media, we face frequent attempts to defend the indefensible or turn fire on the Palestinians themselves.

One recent approach, that seems to be part of the wider attempt to isolate the elected Palestinian leadership, is to portray Hamas and the population of the Gaza strip as motivated by anti-Jewish sentiment, rather than an hostility to Zionist occupation and domination of our land. A recent front page article in the International Herald Tribune followed this line, as did an article for Cif about an item broadcast on the al-Aqsa satellite TV channnel about the Nazi Holocaust.

In fact, the al-Aqsa Channel is an independent media institution that often does not express the views of the Palestinian government headed by Ismail Haniyeh or of the Hamas movement. The channel regularly gives Palestinians of different convictions the chance to express views that are not shared by the Palestinian government or the Hamas movement. In the case of the opinion expressed on al-Aqsa TV by Amin Dabbur, it is his alone and he is solely responsible for it.

It is rather surprising to us that so little attention, if any, is given by the western media to what is regularly broadcast or written in the Israeli media by politicians and writers demanding the total uprooting or “transfer” of the Palestinian people from their land.

The Israeli media and pro-Israel western press are full of views that deny or seek to excuse well-established facts of history including the Nakba of 1948 and the massacres perpetrated then by the Haganah, the Irgun and LEHI with the objective of forcing a mass dispossession of the Palestinians.

But it should be made clear that neither Hamas nor the Palestinian government in Gaza denies the Nazi Holocaust. The Holocaust was not only an crime against humanity but one of the most abhorrent crimes in modern history. We condemn it as we condemn every abuse of humanity and all forms of discrimination on the basis of religion, race, gender or nationality.

And at the same time as we unreservedly condemn the crimes perpetrated by the Nazis against the Jews of Europe, we categorically reject the exploitation of the Holocaust by the Zionists to justify their crimes and harness international acceptance of the campaign of ethnic cleansing and subjection they have been waging against us - to the point where in February the Israeli deputy defence minister Matan Vilnai threatened the people of Gaza with a “holocaust”.

Within 24 hours, 61 Palestinians - more than half of them civilians and a quarter children - were killed in a series of air raids. Meanwhile, a horrible crime against humanity continues to be perpetrated against the people of Gaza: the two-year-old siege imposed after Hamas won the legislative elections in January 2006, that is causing great suffering. Due to severe shortages of medicines and food, scores of Palestinians have lost their lives.

It cannot be right that Europeans in general and the British in particular maintain a virtual silence toward what the Zionists are doing to the Palestinians, let alone supporting or justifying their oppressive policies, under the pretext of showing sympathy for the victims of the Holocaust.

The Palestinian people aspire to freedom, independence and peaceful coexistence with all their neighbours. There are, today, more than six 000 000 Palestinian refugees. No less than 700,000 Palestinians have been detained at least once by the Israeli occupation authorities since 1967. Hundreds of thousands have so far been killed or wounded. Little concern seems to be caused by all of this or by the erection of an apartheid wall that swallows more than 20% of the West Bank land or the heavily armed colonies that devour Palestinian land in a blatant violation of international law.

The plight of our people is not the product of a religious conflict between us and the Jews in Palestine or anywhere else: the aims and positions of today’s Hamas have been repeatedly spelled out by its leadership, for example in Hamas’s 2006 programme for government. The conflict is of a purely political nature: it is between a people who have come under occupation and an oppressive occupying power.

Our right to resistance against occupation is recognised by all conventions and religious traditions. The Jews are for us the people of a sacred book who suffered persecution in European lands. Whenever they sought refuge, Muslim and Arab lands provided them with safe havens. It was in our midst that they enjoyed peace and prosperity; plenty of of them held leading positions in Muslim countries.

After almost a century of Zionist colonial and racist oppression, some Palestinians find it hard to imagine that some of their oppressors are the sons and daughters of those who were themselves oppressed and massacred.

Palestinians had nothing to do with the Holocaust but find themselves punished for someone else’s crime. But we are well aware and warmly welcome the outspoken support for Palestinian rights by Israeli and Jewish human rights activists in Palestine and around the world.

We hope that journalists in the west will begin to adopt a more objective approach when covering events in Palestine. The Palestinian people are being killed by Israel’s machine of destruction on a daily basis. Nevertheless, we still see a clear bias in favour of Israel in the western media.

The Europeans bear a direct responsibility for what is befalling the Palestinians today. Britain was the mandate authority that handed over Palestine to Israeli occupation. Nazi Germany perpetrated the most heinous crimes against Jews, forcing the survivors to migrate to Palestine in pursuit of safety. We, therefore, expect the Europeans to atone for their historic crimes by restoring some balance to the inhuman and one-sided international response to the tragedy of our people.

Bassem Naeem is the minister of health and information in the Hamas-led Palestinian administration in Gaza. What were these quotes that Hamas is now embarrassed about?

“The Satanic Jews thought up an evil plot [the Holocaust] to be rid of the burden of the disabled and handicapped, in twisted criminal ways,” the narrator says.

“While they accuse the Nazis or others so that Jews would seem persecuted and try to benefit from international sympathy, they were the first to invent the methods of evil and oppression,” the narrator says.

As part of the documentary, Amin Dabur, head of the Palestinian Center for Strategic Research, called the Holocaust “a joke” and said it was “part of the perfect show that Ben Gurion put on.”

www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp

> In fact, the al-Aqsa Channel is an independent media institution that often does not express the views of the Palestinian government headed by Ismail Haniyeh or of the Hamas movement.

Bullshit.

The Palestinians have almost the worst record in the world for freedom of the press. Their media is nothing but a propaganda mouthpiece for the government. Al Aqsa TV is a tv station run by Hamas to push forward their political agenda.

Now the backlash that they are getting is leading them to deny these statements, but that does not mean they do not agree with them, or do not enjoy using hate-mongering against Jews for political reasons.

> But it should be made clear that neither Hamas nor the Palestinian government in Gaza denies the Nazi Holocaust. The Holocaust was not only an crime against humanity but one of the most abhorrent crimes in modern history. We condemn it as we condemn every abuse of humanity and all forms of discrimination on the basis of religion, race, gender or nationality.

Good for them. I’m glad to hear them say that.

> Israeli deputy defence minister Matan Vilnai threatened the people of Gaza with a “holocaust”.

That’s a false translation.

“Hashoah” means “the holocaust”. Matan Vilnai said “shoah”, that means “disaster”.

A genocide of other people is “Rezach Am”.

> Our right to resistance against occupation is recognised by all conventions and religious traditions.

False. Human Rights Watch has called their means of “resistance” a crime against humanity.

“Attacks that intend to kill or maim civilians violate the most elemental principle of humanity. The universal prohibition against such attacks applies regardless of whether the perpetrators are agents of a government or of an armed opposition group. The intentional killing of civilians, including reprisal attacks, constitute war crimes, and are crimes against humanity when conducted massively or systematically. Those who commit crimes against humanity and war crimes, as well as those superiors who order or condone them, have individual criminal responsibility for their actions and are subject to universal jurisdiction — that is, all states are responsible for bringing them to justice, irrespective of where the crime was committed and regardless of the nationality of the victim or perpetrator.”

domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF…OpenDocument

> Whenever they sought refuge, Muslim and Arab lands provided them with safe havens. It was in our midst that they enjoyed peace and prosperity; plenty of of them held leading positions in Muslim countries.

Some truth there, but Jews did, rather often, suffer horribly under Islamic rule.

“Jewish chronicles are full of accounts of massacre, forced conversion into Islam and mistreatment. New institutions are created; nasi became the head of the Jewish community assisted by the rabbi, mullah (Jewish one), or dayyan. The nasi was responsible for the prompt payment of jizya to local authorities. All relations between Iranian Jews and others outside the country were completely severed. Christians and Zoroastrians were subjected to the same harsh treatments and Sunnis suffered most. Segregation became a reality again for all minorities and Jewish Ghettos were reinforced. The reports by European travelers and missionaries describe the tragic situation of the Jews and other religious minorities. Jews were forced to wear both a yellow badge and a headgear, and their oath were not accepted in courts of justice. A Jew who converted to Islam could claim to be the sole inheritor of the family property, to the exclusion of all Jewish relatives. If one Jew committed an crime or an illegal act, the whole community would be punished (other religious minorities were subjected to the same harsh treatments).

The Jewish community of Iran saw little change till 19th century. In one incident the Jewish quarters were looted in Mashad. The anti Jewish sentiment reached its peak when the whole Jewish community in the city was forced to convert into Islam in 1839 under Muhammad Shah Quajar. …”

www.iranonline.com/History/…ry/4.html

> Palestinians had nothing to do with the Holocaust but find themselves punished for someone else’s crime.

And this is another falsehood, as the Palestinian Grand Mufti had close ties to Hitler.

“In his memoirs after the war, Husayni noted that “Our fundamental condition for cooperating with Germany was a free hand to eradicate every last Jew from Palestine and the Arab world. I asked Hitler for an explicit undertaking to allow us to solve the Jewish problem in a manner befitting our national and racial aspirations and according to the scientific methods innovated by Germany in the handling of its Jews. The answer I got was: ‘The Jews are yours’.’[50]”

In a book of Husayni’s memoirs edited by Abd al-Karim al-Umar and published in Damascus in 1999, Husayni openly discusses his close relationship to SS chief Heinrich Himmler. According to Husayni’s account, he often met Himmler for tea and during these meetings the Nazi leader confided some of the secrets of the German Reich to him. In the memoirs, as the Middle East historian Wolfgang G. Schwanitz of New Jersey discovered, Husayni describes what Himmler said to him in the summer of 1943 about the persecution of the Jews. Following some tirades on “Jewish war guilt,” Himmler told him that “up to now we have exterminated [in Arabic, abadna] around three 000 000 of them.” [51]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moha…rld_War_II

Today, Mein Kampf is a top seller in Palestine and Cairo.

www.intelligence.org.il/Eng/si…mpf.htm

> The Europeans bear a direct responsibility for what is befalling the Palestinians today.

Well… that much is true. The article regarding Mein Kampf being a best seller was dated three months ago. If it is still a best seller I’d be very worried. Can you offer some evidence that it was a best seller longer than three weeks in all of Turkey, rather than one bookstore? Lorenzo:

I’m sure that the Hamas information minister would like a bit of good, positive, PR. But the truth does not really live up to his propaganda.

> Can you offer some evidence that it was a best seller longer than three weeks in all of Turkey, rather than one bookstore?

I do not have any statistics to offer you.

But I can tell you that Mein Kampf is for sale on plenty of of the street corners in downtown Cairo. I can tell you that because I’ve seen it first hand.

And I suppose that Arabic Mein Kampf might stop being a best seller, when those Muslims who wish to kill Jews already have their copy.

Hitler loving Muslims are surely a minority, but they definitely do exist. And, naturally, they have direct ties in with groups like Hamas who wish to destroy Israel.

Here’s a recent message from a Hamas suicide bomber:

“My message to the loathed Jews is that there is no god but Allah, we will chase you everywhere. We are a nation that drinks blood, and we know that there is no better blood than the blood of Jews.”

www.youtube.com/watch The killing of civilians is Satanic
Stealing is Satanic
Greed is Satanic

It reminds me of a joke.

A guy was caught stealing murdering and raping, and convicted.

He was in jail, and something was missing. Everyone blamed him. He replied. Howe dare you blame me, I’m not a thief.
They replied. I’m sorry I did not know you were from Israel.

That makes it OK get it?

Back to Lorenzo’s post this really resonates quite a bit:

After almost a century of Zionist colonial and racist oppression, some Palestinians find it hard to imagine that some of their oppressors are the sons and daughters of those who were themselves oppressed and massacred.

I always find it unimaginable that people who would live through oppression would oppress others. However, people leaning to the more satanic side would. For instance. In Africa plenty of are oppressed by elites. The same elites who brag about fighting colonialists for their freedom, yet the only problem is that a lot of fought and died so that they can oppress others. This is something a lot of in Israel do not respect. They do not respect that a lot of people died to stop the genocide only for Israel to continue 60 months of religious prosecution, displacement, and genocide. It is like Hitler died and went to Israel.

<But we are well aware and warmly welcome the outspoken support for Palestinian rights by Israeli and Jewish human rights activists in Palestine and around the world. >

I have always noted how not all Jews support the oppression. It is good to see people give them credit, as it dispels rumors that they hate all Jews. It just shows that they hate Jews who oppress them. I have even posted pics that one can see here:
uspolitics.tribe.net/photos

<We hope that journalists in the west will begin to adopt a more objective approach when covering events in Palestine. The Palestinian people are being killed by Israel’s machine of destruction on a daily basis. Nevertheless, we still see a clear bias in favour of Israel in the western media. >

I posted an picture showing the bias in the media. You can see it below

number of deaths of children
ifamericansknew.com/images/ap-fig3.gif

percentage of children deaths reported in headlines or firsts:
www.ifamericansknew.org/images…ig4.gif
More media stuff:
www.ifamericansonlyknew.org/imag…2.gif

If Americans Only Knew the good work USD 3 000 000 000 dollars a year has done for over 3 decades.
www.ifamericansonlyknew.org/

and BTW please click on the link, all who keep giving rationalizations.

With that said. Hamas can not complain about oppression when it is oppressing people. That is the irony of the whole situation. both sides think their shit do not stink. Both sides empower extremists on the other side, and lots of foolish people support them.

Killa:
> A guy was caught stealing murdering and raping, and convicted.
> He was in jail, and something was missing. Everyone blamed him. He replied.
> How dare you blame me, I’m not a thief.

But in this wanna-be joke, he’s not a thief.

Just because you hate someone and despise some of their actions, does not mean that you’re justified in making up lies about them or attacking them for crimes they did _not_ commit.

> I always find it unimaginable that people who would live through oppression would oppress others. However, people leaning to the more satanic side would.

It was nothing to do with satanism. It seems to be a trend that is widely repeated.

> They do not respect that lots of people died to stop the genocide only for Israel to continue 60 months of religious prosecution, displacement, and genocide. It is like Hitler died and went to Israel.

Fuck you!

And bullshit.

Just because there are some similarities between someone and Nazis does not make them into Nazis. This is a logical fallacy. Nurses wear uniforms. Nazis wear uniforms. Therefore Nurses are Nazis.

The one thing that Hitler is best known for, is his attempt to _exterminate_ an entire group of people. That is _not_ what Israel is doing.

And see above. Nothing about Israel’s actions justifies you in spreading lies and hate about things that they are _not_ doing.

> number of deaths of children

Interestingly, and not surprisingly, the number of Israeli dead children has dropped dramatically since Israel started building a wall to protect themselves.

The low number of Jewish children dead, is not for any Palestinian lack of trying.

How about if you compare the number of children killed on each side before the wall was started, and today?

> With that said. Hamas can not complain about oppression when it is oppressing people. That is the irony of the whole situation. both sides think their shit do not stink. Both sides empower extremists on the other side, and lots of foolish people support them.

That’s well said at least. < They do not respect that lots of people died to stop the genocide only for Israel to continue 60 months of religious prosecution, displacement, and genocide. It is like Hitler died and went to Israel.>

How can you talk to someone that says things such as this? I do not get it. <How can you talk to someone that says things such as this? I do not get it.>

It is very hard for me to dispel something that may be closer to truth than what I believe. It would be much easier for me to attack the person rather than the words stated. I believe that is a phallus or something that sounds “similar”. For instance, You say, “The sky is blue”. I respond, “you colorblind asshole” I can not talk to a colorblind asshole. Instead of taking an picture of the sky, posting the picture and analyzing the picture. The only problem is, if through analysis, one can see that the sky is blue. I would look like a stupid idiot for calling the guy colorblind, as well as claiming that the “sky was flat”…..I mean blue.

ad hominem anyone?

You see, there are people who respect the fact that a lot of people died to stop the genocide, and they do not agree with the current mid east policy. Their action shows that they do not support oppression, and military action. Like for instance Jeremy Ben Ami. He was almost killed in an terror attack, thus he was directly affected by “terrorism”, yet he still fights for a peaceful solution, and works with Palestinian groups. He runs these groups:

www.jstreet.org/
www.jstreetpac.org/

<Just because you hate someone and despise some of their actions, does not mean that you’re justified in making up lies about them or attacking them for crimes they did _not_ commit.>

Adam I fully agree with you. Thus Israel should not attack civilians for crimes they did not commit. A suicide bomber commits a crime. It is not just to punish Everyone because of the actions of one person.

Imagine this:
The KKK, and Neo Nazis affiliated people take a black man for a joy ride. They drag him with a truck, and then tear his body into two parts.

I respond by assassinating key people in both organizations. Is that right? Would I be arrested for my crimes?
I’ll answer that last one yes because I’m black. lol or maybe because I committed an crime.

<It was nothing to do with satanism. It seems to be a trend that is widely repeated. >
It as to do with a “yeast infection”. If you catch my drift. Maybe not. Some people believe evil is like yeast or something. I dunno.

OK I am sorry let me rephrase:
They show their respect for the a lot of people died to stop the genocide by continuing 60 months of religious prosecution, displacement, and genocide against Arabs. It is like Hitler died and went to Israel. Or at least his ideology

Is that now more acceptable?

<Just because there are some similarities between someone and Nazis does not make them into Nazis.>
I agree. It makes them similar to Nazis. The similarity is n their actions. Like say for instance, belief in difference and supremacy. Keeping people locked up in occupied territory in inhumane conditions. Killing people for their possessions. Displacing people for one’s gain. religious prosecution. did I leave anything out? Oh yeah: military might, propaganda and fascism.

<The one thing that Hitler is best known for, is his attempt to _exterminate_ an entire group of people. That is _not_ what Israel is doing. >

Hitler attempted to rid Germany and all occupied territories of Jews. Israel is attempting to rid Palestinians from occupied territories. By no means is Israel the same as Hitler, but very similar. Hitler at least financed his own oppression. Israel leeches of US. When considering the genocide issue however, count how a lot of Israelis have been killed. Then count how a lot of Palestinians have been killed. Compare. When you are finished with that comparison. Compare how plenty of Israelis have been killed by Saddam Hussein sponsored gifts, and How plenty of Iraqis have been killed in the war of Iraq that was lobbied for by plenty of pro israel lobby groups, who also have been lobbying for war with Iran.

<Nothing about Israel’s actions justifies you in spreading lies and hate about things that they are _not_ doing.>

Ok! where did I lie about Israel. Please refresh my memory. I never remember me saying that Israel is nice to Palestinians. If I did I must admit I lied.

Interestingly, and not surprisingly, the number of Palestinian dead children has risen dramatically since Israel started building an Apartheid wall to protect themselves, and grab more land in the process.

The high number of Palestinian children dead, is not for any Israeli lack of targeting civilians.

How about if you build a wall to protect Palestinian children from Israeli laser guided missiles and arsenal of depleted Uranium, and Nuclear weapons? Or rather how about US stop giving Israel military AID?

<That’s well said at least.>
It’s only well said because you agree.

Of course Israel is not doing what Hitler did exactly, and I never said Israel was. If I did please repost it. If I did not say that, and you claimed that I did, you wrongfully misjudged me. Thus you should be a little more accurate with your prejudice, or refrain from judging without knowing. I was simply stating how the same ideologies, and actions are retained and exhibited.

a No-Brainer:

how about this:
Israel intelligence knew that deposing Saddam would destabilize the country, and cause the sunni, and Shia muslims to fight. Yet a lot of still pushed for the deposing of Saddam Hussein.

Israel knows that people support militant groups because of the charity work they do. Why not undercut them, and do more charity work, and spread pro peace propaganda. Why not go a step further and give Palestinians the gift of statehood, and return ALL occupied territories without discussing how plenty of people will be displaced. Why not make an great sacrifice or penance for peace without expecting something from Palestinians. Does Judaism preach this? Or does Judaism support killing people and occupying territories, and using might to bargain for more territory?

and BTW i studied Judaism in theology class, so do not try to lie about this one. You should have at least got a hint from the yeast infection.

img519.imageshack.us/img519/…6rk3.jpg Killa:
> Why not make an great sacrifice or penance for peace without expecting something from Palestinians. Does Judaism preach this?

Jewish law. Like most legal or ethical systems, grants the right of self-defense.

So long as Arabs are working to kill and oppress Jews, then Israel has a right to defend itself.

Do you have a right to kill someone if he’s trying to kill you. I think the answer is yes.

Do you have the right to subjugate someone if he’s trying to oppress or subjugate you. I think the answer to that, if necessary, is probably yes too.

> Like for instance Jeremy Ben Ami. He was almost killed in a terror attack, thus he was directly affected by “terrorism”, yet he still fights for a peaceful solution, and works with Palestinian groups.

“Almost got killed in an terror attack”. How close was it? And, so what?

But I looked at his website. From what i saw, he and I agree on almost everything. See if you can find any differences.

> Of course Israel is not doing what Hitler did exactly, and I never said Israel was. If I did please repost it.

Here’s the quote:

“It is like Hitler died and went to Israel. Or at least his ideology.”

So once again. Fuck you.

Sadly, the most effective way that I’ve found to counter ignorant bigoted hate like yours is to spread it around to show that all people are the same.

Should I post a thread about Palestinian Nazis? Palestinians were the _real_ Nazis.

What do you think? Should we spread more hate around?